Sunday, October 23, 2011

[HoM] But I'm connected to over 350 seeders...

What do you do when people just won't listen to a word you say? When they're so concerned that they are in the right, because they tried one test (used to diagnose a different issue) and took it as confirmation that they had no problems. Me, i get mad, but I apologise here and now for that. I lost my temper, but I didn't lose my mind.

This is a prime example of someone thinking they know more than they do, and not listening to anyone else that tried to convince them they have the wrong end of the stuck. It's religious zealotry, starting with the belief in their own ineffability.

As before I've removed the joins/parts of people not involved in the conversation. This took place on the ĀµTorrent support channel, #utorrent on Wednesday October 19th 2011

08:29:54     —›  join  » ‹Jaxxon› ‹[email protected]
08:30:54 «Jaxxon» hello... what would case this kind of behavior?
08:31:05 «Jaxxon» I have a new ISP which tests as pretty fast, but this is not fast
08:31:24 «Jaxxon» a direct d/l from microsoft works fine at 1.2MBps
08:38:23 «Jaxxon» the linked image is a speed graph btw
08:47:13 «Jaxxon» no one here?
08:50:32     —›  join  » ‹Jaxx› ‹[email protected]
08:50:46 «Jaxx» so as I was saying.. no one here?
08:54:54     —›   quit  » ‹Jaxxon› ‹[email protected]› ‹Ping timeout›
09:10:20 «K`Tetch» poorly seeded torrent?
09:10:47 «K`Tetch» when you get a high bandwidth peer uploading to you, you get a spike, otherwise you get what other peers have
09:13:30 «Jaxx» K`Tetch, this was seeded with over 2500 and I had about 350 seeds attached
09:13:43 «Jaxx» at any one time, I had at least 40 transferring
09:13:48 «K`Tetch» *facepalm*
09:13:56 «K`Tetch» you've got bad settings then
09:14:07 «K`Tetch» whats your upload speed?
09:14:26 «Jaxx» I just tried it with a well seeded ubuntu iso and it worked well, however
09:14:35 «Jaxx» so I'm confused
09:14:49 «Jaxx» upload was set to 10KBps
09:15:02 «Jaxx» my max is about 80
09:15:08 «K`Tetch» no, what is your line upload speed
09:15:11 «Jaxx» or 90
09:15:20 «Jaxx» oh, 0.9Mbps
09:15:22 «K`Tetch» 80, so lets say about 768kbit?
09:16:00 «K`Tetch» ok, you shouldn't be connecting to more than 55-60 peers TOTAL per torrent
09:16:09 «K`Tetch» and you're going to 350+
09:16:12 «K`Tetch» there's your problem
09:16:14 «Jaxx» if they're seeds, it should be fine
09:16:21 «Jaxx» no?
09:16:25 «K`Tetch» no
09:16:30 «Jaxx» why not?
09:16:42 «K`Tetch» use the 900kbit line
09:16:58 «Jaxx» my d/l speed is 10Mbps
09:17:14 «K`Tetch» because 1) it's not set in terms of seeds, its in terms of PEERS, and 2) you still have overhead traffic with seeds
09:17:22 «K`Tetch» so what? your download speed is irrelevent
09:17:32 «Jaxx» very little overhead traffic with seeds, I'd think
09:17:47 «K`Tetch» don't think, you're not very good at it
09:18:22 «K`Tetch» bittorrent settings are ALWAYS in terms of your UPLOAD speed
09:18:28 «K`Tetch» NEVER your download speed
09:18:40 «K`Tetch» you press ctrl+g in utorrent, it asks for your upload speed
09:19:10 «Jaxx» what's the overhead per seed?
09:19:34 «K`Tetch» you telling them you have a piece, for instance
09:20:07 «K`Tetch» just put the correct settings in for your connection, job done
09:20:23 «Jaxx» I was looking for it in kbps
09:20:26 «K`Tetch» and be happy you're not going in my hall of morons (although that can change)
09:21:10 «Jaxx» you seem rather a moron if you think that 350 seeds could saturate a 900Kbps uplink
09:21:24 «Jaxx» show me some data that proves that, or admit you're just guessing
09:22:11 «Jaxx» besides, I said that about 40 were transferring at a time
09:22:30 «Jaxx» that would imply that the overhead per seed was over 20Kbps, which is absurd
09:23:02 «K`Tetch» I didn't say saturate
09:23:15 «K`Tetch» I said your bad settings are causing the issue
09:23:20 «Jaxx» again, with no stats I reject your hypothesis as stupid
09:23:25 «Jaxx» what's the overhead per seed?
09:23:39 «Jaxx» btw, I'm usually civil, but you started being rude so I'm continuing
09:23:42 «K`Tetch» you ask someone like DWKnight then
09:23:49 «K`Tetch» he'll say EXACTLY the same thing
09:24:05 «K`Tetch» you have retarded settings, until they're fixed, there's no way to diagnose any other problem
09:24:16 «Jaxx» ok, appeal to authority (whom I don't know) rather than actual data. another sign of idiocy
09:24:38 «Jaxx» want to continue uncivility?
09:24:38 «K`Tetch» try the op list, you'll find him right there at the top
09:24:56 «Jaxx» nice. so being an op makes you an expert? How would I know that?
09:25:20 «K`Tetch» and if you think I'm uncivil', just remember, we do this for the sake of the community, we see idiots who think they know best all the time
09:25:23 «K`Tetch» we get tired of it
09:25:55 «Jaxx» if your theory were correct, my test ubuntu download would have exhibited similar behavior, since a similar number of seeds were connected and downloading
09:25:59 «Jaxx» but it didn't
09:26:06 «Jaxx» X on that theory
09:26:16 «K`Tetch» except that's a chronically overseeded torrent
09:26:30 «K`Tetch» again, you don't know what you're talking about
09:26:46 «Jaxx» which means what in comparison to the other torrent I had problems with which had 2500 seeds?
09:27:14 «K`Tetch» you cme here, asking for help, because you don't know whats wrong. I've pointed out the first, major thing, you won't listen. you're clearly waiing for someone to tell you it's the fault of someone other than you
09:27:16 «Jaxx» your theory was that I had too many connections and this was somehow saturating my uplink and causing the spikes
09:27:44 «K`Tetch» no, I said you had bad settings, and that until you had DECENT settings for your connection, we can't start diagnosing any other problems
09:27:55 «Jaxx» I showed another similar test case without the spikes, your response is that it didn't happen in that case because it was "overseeded"?
09:28:00 «Jaxx» wtf does that mean?
09:28:14 «K`Tetch» because your retarded settings can mask any other clues that could address the issue
09:28:32 «Jaxx» retarded
09:28:35 «Jaxx» nice
09:29:16 «Jaxx» based on your comments I have no confidence that you have the technical knowledge to even begin to diagnose this problem. you just memorized some rules of thumb someone told you and are quoting them
09:29:24 «K`Tetch» here's the thing, even with 100Mbit upload, you shouldn't have more than 200 connections per torrent, you've got 1/100th of that, and at least 166% of that number of per-torrent connections, so YES, RETARDED
09:29:35 «Jaxx» and blustering with nasty words to hide the fact that you know little
09:30:00 «Jaxx» dude, that's for uploading
09:30:20 «Jaxx» you're thinking "upload slots" and yes, then I agree with you
09:30:26 «K`Tetch» I'm not the one with 350+ per-torrent connections, that says it all
09:30:34 «Jaxx» for a 100Mbps connection you should not have more than 200 upload slots, yes
09:30:39 «Jaxx» connections? no freaking way
09:30:52 «K`Tetch» upload slots - 40 for 100Mbit, for you, 4-5
09:31:06 «Jaxx» yes, I wasn't talking about upload slots, dummy
09:31:12 «Jaxx» I have those limited to 4
09:31:28 «Jaxx» try learning something before giving advice
09:31:38 «Jaxx» and try being civil to avoid unnecessary arguments
09:31:44 «&DWKnight» Jaxx: do you have room in your mouth for the other foot?
09:31:46 «K`Tetch» here's a thought then, go to utorrent, press ctrl+g. look at your settings
09:32:04 «K`Tetch» then select your upload speed, (1Mbit) and see the difference
09:32:33 «Jaxx» yes, quote some auto settings, that proves what the issue is
09:32:48 «Jaxx» DWKnight, what's your theory, if you've been reading?
09:33:09 «&DWKnight» K`Tetch is more right than you think
09:33:16 «&DWKnight» too many connections == bad for you
09:33:45 «Jaxx» except I know that my setup can handle many more than what I'm setting it for
09:33:48 «&DWKnight» trying to set your settings based on your connection's download speed is an automatic FAIL for bittorrent clients, uTorrent included
09:34:00 «Jaxx» and again, the number of connections was the same in the two test cases
09:34:05 «&DWKnight» doesn't mean it's going to handle it well
09:34:08 «Jaxx» one fluctuated wildly, the other was steady
09:34:18 «Jaxx» so that eliminates number of connections as the issue
09:34:26 «&DWKnight» no it doesn't
09:35:06 «Jaxx» because of known bugs, or something about the protocol or for what other reason?
09:35:22 «&DWKnight» protocol
09:35:34 «Jaxx» ok, so what about the protocol would explain this problem?

At this point, I was hit by some powercuts, which knocked me off, so we continue from DWKnight's log, hence the format change and the hour shift. The last two lines are overlapped.

[10:36:27am] <&DWKnight> protocol
[10:36:40am] ok, so what about the protocol would explain this problem?
[10:37:02am] <&DWKnight> differences in chatter
[10:37:08am] <&DWKnight> variances in clients you're connected to
[10:37:12am] <&DWKnight> swarm conditions
[10:37:34am] can that be visualized?
[10:38:12am] <&DWKnight> not easily
[10:38:20am] <&DWKnight> some swarms have increased peer exchange
[10:38:29am] <&DWKnight> others have low piece supply
[10:39:14am] <&DWKnight> there's a list of problems that will get their effects exaggerated by having more peer connections per torrent than your connection is properly capable of supporting (in spite of you may "knowing" that it can handle more)
[10:39:29am] so that would probably apply mostly on torrents with a large number of peers compared to seeds?
[10:39:40am] <&DWKnight> not always
[10:40:08am] <&DWKnight> and if you're getting more connections to seeds, you're dealing with the situation where you're not getting piece trade relationships to boost and stabalize your speeds
[10:40:23am] I can easily monitor the total outgoing traffic on my router. wouldn't that indicate whether this issue is happening?
[10:40:36am] <&DWKnight> no
[10:41:13am] <&DWKnight> and before you ask, 150 global, 30 per-torrent, 4 upload slots, 2 torrents active, 1 downloading is what I use
[10:41:27am] <&DWKnight> and I more consistently max my conneciton out with that than I do with settings like you use
[10:41:44am] for example, if I have 1Mbps uplink, and set my max upload speed at 500Kbps, if I see my total bandwidth going way above 500Kbps that would indicate an issue
[10:41:49am] what kind of connection?
[10:42:01am] <&DWKnight> 8m/640k
[10:42:18am] <&DWKnight> we're getting 15m/15m here later the month, I'm only going to be changing my upload limit
[10:42:22am] <&DWKnight> not changing anything else
[10:42:42am] I got to these settings because I was not getting the same speed with lower ones
[10:42:50am] * K`Tetch ([email protected]) has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [61 people]
[10:43:01am] but I'll try 256/128 and see what it does
[10:43:20am] <&DWKnight> bittorrent isn't emule
[10:43:37am] * K`Tetch (~no@@p2p.researcher) has joined #utorrent [62 people]
[10:43:41am] <&DWKnight> trying to connect to thousands may work in emule, but it doesn't work well in bittorrent
[10:44:08am] dang powercuts
[10:44:42am] not convinced that explains it
[10:44:57am] why would the bandwidth fluctuate? If something were being saturated it would just drop
[10:45:02am] instead it drops, then goes up
[10:45:15am] DWKnight - can you email me the last 10mins log later? from '09:35:22 «&DWKnight» protocol'
[10:45:16am] <&DWKnight> burst saturation can do it
[10:46:41am] the issue is that if you limit connections to, say, 30 per torrent, you are likely to end up with very few good nodes
[10:47:34am] <&DWKnight> however those 30 will typically be the best ones you can get
[10:47:42am] <&DWKnight> because of how uTorrent churns idle connections
[10:48:57am] to saturate your 8Mbps link with 30, each one would have to be sending you 260Kbps, which is super unusual for any node
[10:49:14am] connections don't have to be idle to be bad
[10:49:15am] they just have to be slow
[10:49:30am] <&DWKnight> I don't have problems saturating my downstream with those settings
[10:49:56am] I almost never see any node uploading to me that fast
[10:50:13am] * K`Tetch ([email protected]) has quit IRC (Broken pipe) [61 people]
[10:50:19am] <&DWKnight> I sometimes get single nodes saturating my line
[10:50:33am] rare
[10:51:21am] <&DWKnight> happens often enough that I don't increase my per-torrent connections above 50 anymore
[10:52:04am] ok, well thanks for the hypothesis
[10:52:12am] I'll test it out a bit
[10:53:15am] teach k'tetch some manners, "don't think, you're not good at it", "hall of morons" and "retarded" are just not the way to have technical discussions
[10:53:29am] <&DWKnight> he's been at this about as long as I have
[10:53:42am] <&DWKnight> too many people have lemming'd themselves off of the youtube setup guides
[10:53:46am] yes, but you're the op so you can set the standard of civility. by kicking himself
[10:53:47am] <&DWKnight> we're a touch jaded about it
[10:53:51am] kicking him
[10:53:53am] anyway
[10:53:55am] bb
[10:54:02am] * Jaxx ([email protected]) has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [60 people]

Here's the thing. If you have bad settings, they can hide and disguise any number of other problems. We know you have bad settings, since you've told us, so before we attempt any other diagnosis, you HAVE to fix that. Else we're wondering 'is that because of the bad settings, or something else?"

In total, it took 45 minutes to explain that his issues were of his own making, a point first raised within 3 minutes. "Jaxx" is a worthy inductee into the Hall of Morons

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